Today’s portfolio musician: branding  a multi-genre career with Dr. Chloe Swindler

Michelle Lynne: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Fearless Artist Podcast. I’m your host, Michelle Lynne, and today I’m thrilled to have on Dr. Chloe Swindler. Welcome, Chloe, to the podcast.

Chloe Swindler: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Michelle Lynne: I’ve been following you for a long time on Instagram, and we talk about similar things, and I know that you teach on faculty, so I definitely knew that I had to have you on, um, as a musician who’s doing more than one thing. And that’s something that’s really important to us that we like to talk about on our episodes because many of our musicians are pursuing portfolio careers and have multiple strengths and skills. We’re learning more and more that it’s actually an asset to have a portfolio career, and not because you just weren’t, like, good enough to just do the one thing 100% of the time. Yeah. Okay, so I’ll let you introduce yourself, and then I feel like we can just dive in.

Chloe Swindler: Hi. Um, yes, my name is Dr. Chloe Swindler. I usually introduce myself as being a musician, an educator, and an entrepreneur. Um, I do this even for my classes at Berklee, where I’m teaching lecture classes. And so, I, uh, currently am on faculty at the Berklee College of Music in, um, actually the Africana Studies Department. And then I also teach at the Longy School of Music as a trumpet faculty there. But on another side of business, I’m a freelance musician. Um, I started as a classically trained player. I did my bachelor’s first at Boston University, then my master’s at Yale, and then finished with a doctorate at UCLA.

I went straight through, and it was all classical training, and along the way, I’ve definitely branched out in terms of genres that I’ve performed. Um, when I was in LA, I got to do a little bit more commercial work, doing recording sessions at Capitol Records, playing with Harry Styles at Coachella.

Michelle Lynne: Oh, really? That’s cool.

Chloe Swindler: It was…

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: Hands down, best gig I’ve ever done.

Michelle Lynne: Really?

Chloe Swindler: I’ve never seen that many people in one place before… probably won’t…

Michelle Lynne: Mm-mm.

Chloe Swindler: Again.

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: And then I played with Lizzo at the BET Awards, and now, um, I’m on the sub-list for the Boston Symphony and the Boston Pops. And so, I’ve been doing a wide range of genres as a freelancer. And then the third, uh, sort of thing that I do, being an entrepreneur, I have an LLC, um, where I run all my freelance services through, and also housed under that, I house my private teaching studio. And so that’s why I have these three pillars: musician, educator, entrepreneur. And they’ve, at this point now, they all go hand-in-hand, um, and they inform each other. And that’s been really nice, that I don’t feel like I’m running three separate ships anymore.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, yeah.

Chloe Swindler: They all existed in the same plane.

Michelle Lynne: Oh my gosh, so many questions for you already because I went through that very similar phase of like, my life is split in so many different directions, and finally things like, I love how you just said, “inform each other.” Everything syncs according to what I feel my purpose is. How is that for you to go straight through, finish the doctorate? I mean, it sounds like very intense years.

Chloe Swindler: Yes, very intense years. I think even after finishing my doctorate, there was a large period of self-exploration where I had to really discover who I am without the identity of being a student or in training.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: If you’re in training until you’re 26, then even when you’re doing professional gigs, you still felt… well, I personally still felt like a student.

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: I really had a hard time getting out of that mindset, despite the fact that I was doing all these professional gigs already. Um, and so that, that was a bit of a struggle to go all the way straight through. It’s nice to do it and finish it all, but it’s taken some time to even adjust for that.

Michelle Lynne: Was there something that you noticed afterwards that helped you get out of the student mindset and could have helped you do it sooner?

Chloe Swindler: Yeah. Um, for me, actually, one of my old teachers from UCLA just kept saying, “Stop introducing yourself as, ‘I recently finished blah, blah, blah,’ or ‘this degree,’ um, and just say what type of work you’re doing.” A lot of the qualifiers that I kept using were like, “I just finished my doctorate at UCLA.” And I was noticing at the time when I finished, I was, um, working a full-time arts admin job at Berklee. When I was talking to people, they would see me as closer to a student than they would a colleague. By instead, uh, sharing or introducing myself without that qualifier, it was really helpful.

Michelle Lynne: That sounds like it was helpful also for you and your mindset identity, how you’re approaching those conversations.

Chloe Swindler: And it was funny because for me, I had at that point worked through nine straight years of college to finish and get my doctorate, and I was excited. So I would be excited to tell people.

Michelle Lynne: Of course.

Chloe Swindler: Uh, it would be kind of like, “Oh, it’s actually hurting how people view me.”

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Ways to lead with that. And so it’s quietly knowing that you have it and showing it through your skill sets and not leading with that when you go into a room.

Michelle Lynne: I love that so much, actually. Um, I’m a faculty at Codarts in Rotterdam, and my colleague Peter said, “Tell them, don’t tell them they’re students. Call them artists.”

Chloe Swindler: Yep.

Michelle Lynne: And I was like, “Oh, man, come on, they’re Bachelor 1, you know?” But I, but I, I totally respect his opinion on this and his mindset. So now I, I write every email, “Dear Fearless Artist,” you know? And I’ve, I’ve drilled into them like, “We’re thriving, not starving.” And like, they have, they have tote bags and like, it’s a mindset thing. So, but I mean, at the same time, like so much respect for you getting your doctorate, and I totally think you should shout that from everywhere. Like, “Yes, I just finished my doctorate, and I earned it, you know?”

Chloe Swindler: Right? But it’s funny, even for some of these art spaces, like, if you’re playing with an orchestra, people don’t care if you have a doctorate. If you’re… it’s the main place where it’s helpful is being a teacher in a classroom or as you’re working your way up in the ranks in maybe like an arts admin, uh, like a department chair or something like that situation. And so it’s interesting that in performance spaces, it’s less of a helpful qualifier.

Michelle Lynne: It’s so interesting because we talk about tailoring our bio based on the audience that’s reading it. So in a real way, you’re tailoring your elevator pitch based on the audience. Like, “Oh, I’m in a performance space, like, I’m going to let my chops speak for themselves.”

Chloe Swindler: Exactly. I just, um, gave a talk on building a brand, a professional brand and portfolio at the International Women’s Brass Conference. And the first thing, the first segment of the seven parts of the portfolio that I talked about was the artist bio. And I told them, “You know, if you’re playing with an orchestra, don’t send them your arts admin bio.”

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Make sense for the reader,

Michelle Lynne: Yep.

Chloe Swindler: As to help them learn what you’ve done as a, as a musician.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: If you have 50 words or 100 words to talk about yourself, be relevant to the situation that you’re getting hired in.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So since you mentioned branding, let’s jump right in because you are talking about that, and it’s very cool, and you’re teaching this as well, right? In the…

Chloe Swindler: I teach a…

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: Yep. At Berklee. It’s called, “Building a Brand: Portfolio Development in Black Music and Culture.”

Michelle Lynne: Okay. Wow, it’s a mouthful. Okay, okay. I’d love to hear a little bit about curriculum and also like your ideas around branding. I mean, before we started recording, you were already sharing.

Chloe Swindler: Yeah. So for the class that I run, this was the first semester that I ran it, and we’re going to run it every semester, I believe, from here on out. But, um, my goal for my students was really in the first half of the semester to, uh, be aware of what their brand is and that they know that they have full control over it. So for many of them, the first thing I had them do was do a, it was less than five minute elevator pitch as to who they are and to talk about their brand, and what their brand visually is, and how… what sort of mood their brand evokes when they work with people. And almost all of the 19 students that I had said, “I don’t really have a brand.”

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: And the main point of the class for me is to dispel that, because coming into this classroom, you already have a brand whether you acknowledge it or not. And for me, when I’m talking with my students, I’m telling them, “If you show up to rehearsal on time, if you have all the equipment that you need, if you’ve prepared all of the music ahead of time,” those are three like bare minimum things that already say something about your brand and determine whether someone would recommend you for work. Um, especially if someone’s going to refer you to a gig, um, their reputation is on the line as well. And so there is a self-awareness you have to have to build your brand. So the first part of the semester was building that awareness, but also building an awareness of what their vision is. It… I have them all do, it’s sort of like a guided, um, journaling session in one of the first couple of weeks of the semester where we get really clear about what they want to be known for. Um, in the class, I have students from Berklee, but I also have students from Boston Conservatory. I had dancers and musical theater students for the first time.

Michelle Lynne: Cool.

Chloe Swindler: And so for some of ’em, it was, “Do you want to be known for being a choreographer?” There was a student who, um, she wanted to have like a sort of nightclub and have dance wear and apparel that she made that went along with that. So asking them, “In 10 years, what would you want to be known for?” And working backwards so that you can start saying and feeling like, “I’m doing that already, and I’m building that foundation.” And so by the end of the semester, we had worked on that, and we’d also created a visual brand. We had created essentially, um, they’re using the same fonts, the same color schemes. They all had to create a logo. Um, and so they had visual branding. Then the second half of the semester, they got to kind of choose what they did with that. Um, but each of them had to create a, uh, an email sequence, a welcome email sequence if they had an email list, to introduce themselves to people who may find them in their audience and have no idea who they are.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: And then also had them write some short scripts for, uh, short and long form videos, um, that would be branded. And they all had to build a website by the end of the semester as well. Um, and so it was beautiful. It… I didn’t know if it was going to work. You know, the first time you run a class, you don’t know if the pace is going to go well. And I’m really grateful to the students that, one, they were super nice, and two, that they, um, were able to create a space where they could give feedback to each other in a constructive way.

Michelle Lynne: Wow.

Chloe Swindler: Still have that safety in, in the space. But that’s what the gist of the class was. And it was a huge success. Some of the students in their feedback at the end of the semester said it was the most helpful class they’ve taken at Berklee. And I, I take pride in that. Um…

Michelle Lynne: You should.

Chloe Swindler: A class that I wish I had had when I was in…

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: School.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, fantastic. I am, I’m astounded at how much you fit into one year.

Chloe Swindler: Yeah.

Michelle Lynne: To build the website is, yeah.

Chloe Swindler: Semester.

Michelle Lynne: Oh, really? Okay. That’s crazy. Okay, but so then can you talk a little bit about their mindset? Like, were they open and ready for this, because…

Chloe Swindler: Yeah.

Michelle Lynne: I know there’s a lot of pushback.

Chloe Swindler: Yeah. So I will say, again, one of my greatest triumphs and, and I talked about this with one of the students at the end of the semester, I had a student who came in and the first class was kind of guns blazing. And they’re like, I think, more or less, they were saying, “I think having a brand is super vain and like, it feels weird for me, and it doesn’t feel right, and I don’t want to have to like, advertise myself and put my face out there.” And by the end of the semester, they had built an incredible brand, and it was something that didn’t feature their face. It featured, um, they were creating a sort of vintage clothing shop. So they’re using adjacent skills, but they had built a very visual brand. Their brand was very Gen Z. It was beautiful.

It was like, dog, of it was like photos of like, “Here’s a dog drinking like Pepsi.” And I, I didn’t get it, but I, I, the mood board made sense, and it resonated, and it was great seeing like other students in the class be like, “This is really cool.”

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: And so, yes, I did have at least one student in the class who was totally not sold on why you need a brand. And at the end, a really clear brand, and really understood, like, it doesn’t all have to be, “Here’s a photo of me on Instagram every single day, and here’s my face here and me talking about myself all the time.” It doesn’t have to be that. You can channel that into something else that’s faceless, that doesn’t have your name attached to it, and still have like a viable career doing that.

Michelle Lynne: I love that. It sounds like an amazing class and very cool. Um, I’d love for you to go back to when they walk into the room and they say, “No, no, no, I don’t have a brand.” How do you help them uncover like you do already? I mean, I know you mentioned being on time and you know, respect basically sounds like what’s entangled in that, but yeah. What else?

Chloe Swindler: I have every single class, for the most part, I had an in-class assignment, and it’s something that’s printed. Um, and it, it’s guided questions where I literally have them write down like, “Do you arrive on time to rehearsals?” “Yes.” Or like, it’s, it’s point blank asking them to reflect on those things, um, that I consider to be, uh, and many consider to be a part of your brand. Do, uh, arrive on time to spaces. Do you arrive, uh, prepared to things? How do you, even the way that we dress when we show up to spaces, are you aware of, of how you do that? And not in a sort of policing of what’s appropriate or not, but just being aware that how you arrive in certain spaces and how you carry yourself and the language you use also a part of your brand. And so…

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: I had them fill out this guided journaling. Um, and so each week for the first, I think three or four weeks, uh, a good portion of class was dedicated to building a self-awareness. No amount of me sitting there and lecturing about different brands is going to make them more aware of what their brand is. Um, and so that’s how I do it. And it, it was really helpful because by the end, they’re very clear on why, like what they do, so much so that started to notice like, “Oh, I came to my lesson like unprepared and I felt bad about it.” And noticing like, “Oh, my brand, I’m building that with my teacher who could hire me for more gigs while I’m in school or after school.” And so it started to ricochet outside of the classroom as well, um, for things and professional engagements that they had.

Michelle Lynne: That’s amazing. I know brand is like more of a recent idea among musicians, let’s say. I don’t know the last first…

Chloe Swindler: Yeah.

Michelle Lynne: Musicians for sure, right? Like, we weren’t talking about this when I was in school. But…

Chloe Swindler: No.

Michelle Lynne: In terms of like showing up prepared and on time, would you also say that that’s just part of being like professional? Like how do you differentiate your brand from just being a professional?

Chloe Swindler: I think they’re tied together. Um, I think when we talk about professionalism, um, some people, I, I think there’s a lot of baggage that goes along with it. And especially as someone who is, uh, a Black woman, when we talk about professionalism, sometimes we have differences in how people would think your hair or natural hair showing up into a space would be, or the clothing that you might wear. So for me, I, I talk about it less as professionalism ’cause I feel sometimes it’s for some students very loaded and they have a lot of different experiences with being told they’re professional or not professional. But saying it…

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Back to your brand has been something that’s more resonating.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: I’ll say.

Michelle Lynne: So let’s just say like everyone in the class, all 19 of them, you expect them to show up on time and prepared. So the, what other differentiators were you using to help them uncover their own unique brand? Or were you saying that everyone was kind of in the same genre brand?

Chloe Swindler: No, no, they were all, almost…

Michelle Lynne: I…

Chloe Swindler: Of them were completely, completely different brands. Um, when I was helping them self-guide to figure out what their brand is, part of one of these guided exercises was to go from, “All right, what’s your, what’s your main category of what you do?” “Okay, I’m a musician.” “Okay, under that category, what would you say you do?” “Okay, I’m an R&B singer.” “All right, under that category, what would you say you are?” So to go and get really specific about the niche that they’re in. And…

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Even in the class, we had some folks who were vocalists, who sang similar styles of music. Their brains were completely different because they were aware of, of what type of spaces they would want to get hired in or don’t want to get hired in. What type of, of music they play, uh, or what, what would want to sing? That repertoire makes a huge difference in how you talk about yourself. Who their audience is. Do they mostly want young people coming to their shows?

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Or do they folks who really want to do throwbacks and they want to have that older generation come to their concerts and get nostalgic? You know, that that is another level of awareness that, that we were building.

Michelle Lynne: It’s so good. I mean, I think for the typical classical, ’cause you were having more than just musicians, right? You mentioned dancers and you mentioned, okay.

Chloe Swindler: Classical musician in the class. Yeah.

Michelle Lynne: Okay, okay. Just thinking for our classical musicians listening, I love that you’re mentioning, “Who do you want to be in the audience?” ‘Cause I think everyone listening the answer would just be like, “Well, anyone who wants to come.” Right? And so how would you encourage…

Chloe Swindler: My students gave. I…

Michelle Lynne: So please teach us. Like what do you say to them?

Chloe Swindler: So I said, “Well, that’s great. It doesn’t really help you target your audience.” And the exercise that I helped them use was kind of going backwards. I started with them thinking of their email list. And I had them create a person that they were specifically thinking of that their email list would be targeted to. Their email list is what’s, how they’re continuing to talk about themselves and, um, advertise any future shows or upcoming recordings that people can buy. And so I had them put a name, like a, a, a name to this person. Um, and so for my classical student, the, the music that they were making or the type of content that they even wanted to make was for younger, Black, classical musicians who, um, were going through college and the college experience and, um, I think specifically they were composers. So they, they made a name for this, this person. Um, and so even in, in their email where they’re introducing themselves, they said, “Hey,” I forget what the name was. But, um, “I know you’re probably busy going in between classes, but I just wanted to take a minute to talk to you about X, Y, Z.” So there is awareness of, “Okay, my audience is, is a busy college student. My audience…”

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: This email while they’re in between classes. It’s not the weekend probably for them. And so from that, we work backwards. So if you’re writing an email to someone who is that person, that’s your audience, and then you work backwards and you say, “Okay, that’s the person that I want to come to my show.” And so having that writing exercise was helpful because then you can work back and, and have a clear audience for yourself.

Michelle Lynne: I love how you’re coaching them to really dig deep and figure out, “How am I going to do this?” Because then that activates them to do it after the class is over in the real world.

Chloe Swindler: Yes, and some did it during the class as well. I had some students who were so motivated that they’re like, “Oh, now I’m calling a bunch of venues to get my band booked for a mini tour here, and I’m using the poster.” I had them also do some graphic design to create a poster for a fake event. Some of them made a, I know all in…

Michelle Lynne: This, this…

Chloe Swindler: Weeks.

Michelle Lynne: Is like, okay, it is like three hours long. It’s amazing.

Chloe Swindler: It’s, it’s a three hour long…

Michelle Lynne: Oh, okay, okay.

Chloe Swindler: One hour the next day.

Michelle Lynne: Okay. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Because I’m like, “Wow, girl, I’m impressed.”

Chloe Swindler: But, um… Yeah, even for that, they started to use these things in real life.

Michelle Lynne: Good.

Chloe Swindler: With the sort of vintage shop, literally did a pop-up event in Rhode Island and used the, the poster that they made in the class to do…

Michelle Lynne: That’s crazy. It’s so great.

Chloe Swindler: Their senior recital, like, used the poster they made in our class for their senior recital and brought it in and we got to tweak it and workshop it and, um, get feedback on it from not just me, but other students. And so, it was practical, it was hands-on. They were using it, not just waiting to be able to use it after the class, but literally using it during the class too.

Michelle Lynne: Amazing because then they see why they’re sitting in your class in the first place.

Chloe Swindler: Yes, exactly.

Michelle Lynne: I don’t know. Is attendance mandatory there?

Chloe Swindler: Attendance is, typically, I think for me, it was if you missed more than three classes, you, you won’t pass the class.

Michelle Lynne: Okay. Got it, got it, got it, got it. But the incentive of them seeing the results right away means that they want to show up ’cause they get it, rather than, yeah, having these theory or practical or theoretical classes that they never know how they’re going to use it ever again.

Chloe Swindler: Yeah. I had a student who, um, part of the project was to create…

Michelle Lynne: I…

Chloe Swindler: For something, even if you didn’t have something yet, to dream big. And, uh, I, I asked all of them, “If you were realistic, what’s your dream?”

Michelle Lynne: I love that.

Chloe Swindler: “If you were unrealistic…”

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chloe Swindler: “What is your dream?” And I had each of them in the first week or two share out loud what their dream is. And for some of them, they’re like, “It’s going to sound silly.” I was like, “No qualifiers. If it’s your dream, it’s your dream.” And so one of them was creating a film scoring company. Um, and so they made a website for it. But then they came in after we had built the, websites for our project, and they redid their own personal website, and they had done a branded photo shoot, and their website was like in all their brand colors, and they redid their Instagram. So it was really cool too to see if you apply something to this project, you can also apply these same skills to future projects that you’re working on as well.

Michelle Lynne: Amazing. Okay, I love this. So beyond the visuals that you mentioned, like the colors and the fonts and the logo, how are they rebranding their Instagram? What else is coming through? How do they know what to post or what to talk about or the website even?

Chloe Swindler: Yeah. So what I will say is that if I had 16 more weeks, I would’ve focused more on social media. This is one of the plans that I’d had for this semester. What we ended up doing, the farthest we got, was working on their bios. Um, usually what I recommend is in the first line saying who your page is for. In the second line, having some sort of qualifier of like what your credentials are for many of…

Michelle Lynne: You mean the Instagram bio right now? Right? Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: Yeah.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: The, yeah, the…

Michelle Lynne: Just to clarify. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Um, and then the last line is their, their call to action for what they want the person to do. So as a, “Download my free vocal singing…” uh, “warmup,” um, “vocal singing, but my free vocal warmup.” That’s typically what we, what I had them do. And in some instances, I had them, I did have them use AI. I had them use ChatGPT and showed them, some of them said, “ChatGPT was awful, but it helped me think of this.”

Michelle Lynne: Yes, yes, yes.

Chloe Swindler: “And it got me closer to this.” And, help them see that. There’s also a way, if you want to be able to use AI to help you build your portfolio, you can do that. Some of them, I think I did the same thing with them for their bio. I said, “Tell ChatGPT who you are and have it a 50 and a 100 word bio.” And all of them had better ones that they wrote themselves, but they were able to see, “Okay, sometimes AI is a tool that you can use in this process…”

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: “…but it’s better to hear it from you.”

Michelle Lynne: So good to, to use it as a tool and a prompt to get you thinking. ‘Cause a lot of times we’re just staring at that blank cursor. Um, okay, so the Instagram bio, I love this. So first line is who you’re there for, like your target audience, basically, right?

Chloe Swindler: Yes.

Michelle Lynne: Second line, your credentials. Then third line, your call to action, what you want them to do. Um, what would you recommend for like that first line of the Instagram bio? Like what do we say?

Chloe Swindler: Yeah. Um, so I’ll give you an example, which is…

Michelle Lynne: I was about to pull up yours ’cause I’m sure yours is amazing.

Chloe Swindler: No, so this is the funny thing is all of this is what I use to build my studio, my studio page. And so,

Michelle Lynne: What is your studio page? ‘Cause I need to follow you there.

Chloe Swindler: Uh, it’s called Trumpet Fundamentals.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: And so it’s my, my private studio page, which has a larger following than my, um…

Michelle Lynne: Oh, wow.

Chloe Swindler: My personal one. I used it kind of like a case study to learn and see, “Okay, if I do X, Y, Z, how can I grow on social media?” And I grew that account, I think it was to like 22 or 23,000 in less than six months.

Michelle Lynne: Oh, wow. Okay.

Chloe Swindler: I got, because, and I credit a lot of this to being super clear about who the page was for.

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: And this page, let’s see. Yeah, it says, “I help trumpet players improve their practice routines, technique, and musical expression.” That’s the first…

Michelle Lynne: Super clear. Although as a pianist, I’m like, “I want to see what she’s teaching too.” Like,

Chloe Swindler: Exactly. And so part of that is to say, okay, while this is for trumpet players, most musicians want to learn, okay, what are some good ideas for practice routines? Um, how can I get better at, at musically expressing myself? So then in the second line, I have, “Free exercises and mini lessons,” which is what the page has. Um, and then the last thing that I have is a little arrow pointing down. It says, “Grab your free guide.” And from doing this, from having this in my bio, my link to my free guide, and having it in my bios on YouTube and TikTok, I grew that email list to, I think it’s at 1200 now. 1200 people. By not having to pay money to advertise it, but by using my portfolio to show folks, “Okay, here’s a free resource you can use, and in exchange you’ll give me your email.” I might send you some things from time to time, but that’s how, how I’ve recommended they set up the, the bio page for the Instagram.

Michelle Lynne: And you visually, your branding is so beautiful too. Like you’ve got this really cool orange, it’s either an orange font or this ridiculously cool orange fuzzy jacket that you have.

Chloe Swindler: Yes, yes.

Michelle Lynne: If you guys aren’t watching this on YouTube, then you have to go check out Chloe’s Trumpet Fundamentals on Instagram. Um, okay. Yeah, and it’s also just visually very beautiful. Let’s jump to like a performing page where a lot of our listeners are coming from. Like a lot of them have teaching studios, but if you’re just like a performer, so…

Chloe Swindler: You would say what you want. For example, mine says, “Yeah, I say I’m a freelance performing and recording artist.” And…

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: In the first line has helped people just book me.

Michelle Lynne: Right.

Chloe Swindler: I’m not tied to like a specific place. Um, and that has made me open for recording sessions that are virtual, that I can record at home as well. I’m on faculty at Berklee and Longy. I put that in the second line. And then in the third line for me, I don’t have a call to action at the moment, and I’m building things since there’s a small rebrand coming in the next…

Michelle Lynne: Ooh.

Chloe Swindler: Uh…

Michelle Lynne: I’ll be watching.

Chloe Swindler: For, but also be like sharing behind the scenes of how I’m doing it. But I have, a line on here, “Demystifying music careers.” Um, this is getting changed to, basically it’s going to be about content for freelancing, building a brand in entrepreneurship, which is what my page has ended up being about.

Michelle Lynne: Okay, so you’re combining those two things.

Chloe Swindler: Yes, for musicians, what I will say, you should always have the city you’re in.

Michelle Lynne: Yes.

Chloe Swindler: In your bio.

Michelle Lynne: Thank you. Absolutely.

Chloe Swindler: It can be even in your username, not in the username, but in the, the title section. Um,

Michelle Lynne: The one…

Chloe Swindler: The searchable one. Yes. You would say, you could say, “Trumpet player in Boston.” So always having that in there as well. And the demystifying music careers, I’m assuming is related to your educational pillar because you’re showing behind the scenes as well as talking about all the ways a musician can make money. I mean, I mean, already in this, in this show, you’ve told us all of the different things that you’re doing. That ultimately, I love what you said, “They inform one another.” It’s so good.

Chloe Swindler: They do. And it, it’s honestly taken such a long time for them to all be in, what I visualize now is like a boat, like for them to all float together. At certain points, there was like a hole at the bottom of one boat and you know, I’m paddling water out of like the…

Michelle Lynne: Oh my gosh. That’s good.

Chloe Swindler: I’d say the last like six months, I’m, I’m nearly 30, I’m turning 30 in November. The last six months were the, have been the first time when everything has kind of really come together. And it doesn’t feel like, “Okay, I am spinning the plate of owning my business and like for my studio, my studio name, it’s a registered trademark now.” So that was a year long process to get that going. For my freelance career, I just ended up on the, the sub-list for the Boston Symphony about a year ago. So I started to get a lot more freelance work and very classical, and then sometimes very pop, Pops show oriented work. So that means spinning this plate to get my technique in shape for that. Getting hired for a wedding gig sometimes as well meant, okay, I have to do a different skill set here. Now I feel like all the plates are spinning. Even teaching. Teaching is the main, one of the main gigs that I have. Um, so I was teaching 200 students, uh, once, I think it was two semesters ago, as a, as a, as a part-time lecturer, and I was spinning all these other plates. And so this is the first time I feel like the plates are spinning harmoniously or that the boat is all one boat and it’s afloat. And, I…

Michelle Lynne: So…

Chloe Swindler: Feel that the twenties have been lots of searching of how to make it come…

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, what changed? How did we get these plates spinning?

Chloe Swindler: I think for me, I had a great life coaching session earlier in January with a woman named Ashley Hall. Uh, she’s a trumpet player and a life coach, and she, in our one hour session, really had me… She, I think she asked me a question like, “If your career was, I don’t know if it was an item or a doll, like what would it, what would it look like?” And I described it as like, “Well, some parts of it, there’s like gum attached to like the arm here and like the leg’s falling off of the bottom.” Like it, to me, it didn’t seem like everything was coming together. It…

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Mismatch and like different fabrics on this doll. But she was asking me very leading questions of, “Well how, what, what can you do to make it a cohesive thing here?” Um, and so having some life coaching was helpful. I will also say teaching in a department, I teach again in the Africana Studies Department at Berklee. They have really allowed me to flourish in these other skill sets that I have, and encourage it.

Michelle Lynne: Mm. Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: That they took a chance on me and let me do this branding class to talk about entrepreneurship and to talk about why it’s important to build your portfolio meant that that part, that plate is no longer chaotically spinning. I get to work on that while I am teaching. And then my freelancing work, my, my department wants me to be able to go out and take these gigs. And so they no longer felt like they were like in conflict with each other, that one of the main anchors for my income is excited that I’m doing these other things.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: And wants me to be able to bring those skills back into the classroom.

Michelle Lynne: It makes you a better asset for them. So it’s a win-win. You have real world experience. You can teach the students. Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. Very cool. I wanted to say, how do you decide what to say yes to and what to say no to? When all of your plates are already going, like, where’s your capacity? Or do you just say like, “I gotta keep what’s in motion afloat?”

Chloe Swindler: Yeah, I’ve gotten…

Michelle Lynne: I…

Chloe Swindler: At this.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: What I will say is now, so I’m meticulous with my calendar. I’m not the type of person who will remember in passing if you tell me this is happening on the 14th, that I’ll just remember. If you tell me the second you tell me, everything goes in the calendar. So if someone sends me info for a gig and says, “Are you available?” First thing I’ll do, I’ll look at my calendar and I’ll see, “Okay, I’m teaching six lectures that week. I’m teaching my private students. I’ve already got a gig lined up in the first half of the week, and they’re asking if I can do this wedding gig, two wedding gigs, maybe on Friday night and Saturday night.” I might say no because I know that I will have been working for 12 straight days at that point without a day off.

Michelle Lynne: Right.

Chloe Swindler: Or two days off.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chloe Swindler: I know that that, that is going to deplete me.

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: And I won’t have the energy to do the things I’ve already said yes to. Um, and so in many ways, I’m gauging my energy backwards. And so I will typically look at that. I will try to make sure that I have one or two days off a week. So that’s one way where I…

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: Say yes or no to a gig. But it…

Michelle Lynne: Good for you, by the way. Right? Okay. Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: It does depend on that. If, if, um, I had a gig this week in which I made three grand in three days,

Michelle Lynne: Woo, we love those gigs.

Chloe Swindler: We love those gigs. Yes. But that meant that I worked for, I think it was like 10 days in a row. Okay. I can stomach that.

Michelle Lynne: Right?

Chloe Swindler: If the gig paid less, if the gig wasn’t paying basically my rent for a…

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Month. I would think about also, who is it with? Is it for a good cause? Is it… I love playing with for kids or like any sort of kid events? I might say yes to that. So I’m thinking about what is the event for? And then also, who is the event with? Is this going to help my career? Um, is it going to be a good time? And so these are some of the things I think about when I say yes or no. If it’s for a friend, sometimes I’ll say yes because I’d love to see that friend. And not for the purpose of networking, but for the purpose of also reminding myself why we make music. Not everything has…

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: To be for money. Yes, we need money to live. But that’s a little bit of a thought process for me.

Michelle Lynne: That’s so good. And why, why is one of your core reasons for making music? What lights you up about it?

Chloe Swindler: You know what? I will say, I lost it for a bit. Last year my, my husband’s, uh, father passed away from pancreatic cancer. He…

Michelle Lynne: I’m sorry.

Chloe Swindler: Earlier in the year, um, and passed away in December. And so I was very tough even in the last year. Wanting to pick up my instrument and having a reason for why I do this. And I, I really lost that. And I, what I will say is over the last couple of months, it’s been beautiful to find that and connect with that again. And for me, the reason is, it’s, it’s purely for joy. It’s for entertainment. Playing a lot of, uh, pop shows in the last… playing with my students in our lessons. You’re supposed to find joy in what you do. And as someone who went through like a rigorous, nearly decade-long training, when you treat your instrument like a chore, when you treat it like something that, that you have to do, not something that you get the privilege of being able to do, your mindset is different. And so, for me it’s, it’s been a change of mindset to say it’s a privilege that I get to play this instrument, that people pay me to play this instrument, and that I get to make music with amazing colleagues. And even when I’m making music with my students, my private students who are young, women, trumpet players in high school, there’s a joy in that for me of getting to mentor them, um, and seeing them from week to week progress and gain a lot of confidence. And so, I think for me, at the, at the core of it, it’s joy, personal, and that you get to share it with other people.

Michelle Lynne: That’s so beautiful. I love that. And the fact that you’ve been able to keep that as kind of your grounding in through such a difficult season that you’ve gone through, and it’s amazing that that did come back to you and that you find, um, joy in it now and in the process. Um,

Chloe Swindler: The process… Yes.

Michelle Lynne: What do you think about that?

Chloe Swindler: Well, no. Yeah. I really, after finishing my doctorate, I, I had a deep disdain for the process.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: My, my studio account on…

Michelle Lynne: I love this. I also hate the process.

Chloe Swindler: I started my studio account in an attempt to get myself back into the process.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: Like I, I forced myself to, to work on my fundamentals by posting videos to Instagram, and it built my portfolio and it forced me to practice, which was great. But the process, again, for me, up until the last, maybe even two months, I’ve loathed the process. And I think part of that is residual for me from school.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: But now there’s, I’ve refound like a curiosity with my instrument. Like, why does this work?

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Why doesn’t this work?

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Um, and it’s led to an intensity of, “I want this to sound good,” and I, I, I’m holding myself to a different standard. And so the process has different seasons, is what I will say.

Michelle Lynne: I love this. What would you say to someone who’s lost their joy and how to come back?

Chloe Swindler: I would say first, remembering what made you get into music to begin with. For me, when I lost my joy, I made a little miniseries in January of, of trying to get my creative spark back because I was like, “It’s, it’s gone. It’s…”

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: Obliterated. There is, there is no tingling anywhere to want to create. And I really thought about why did I start making music. I made music because I was in middle school and high school and loved showing up even to youth orchestra on Saturdays and blundering through Bolero or blundering through Tchaik 4 with my friends from around town, and we had fun and it wasn’t serious.

Michelle Lynne: Mm.

Chloe Swindler: It wasn’t like I wasn’t aware of brand and aware of whether I’d get hired back, not hired in your, your youth orchestra. There weren’t strings attached to it.

Michelle Lynne: There’s no pressure.

Chloe Swindler: There’s no pressure.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: So I really had to, to find ways to put myself in those situations again. And for me, I, and to say yes more to work that does that me. I feel that way in wedding gigs. Wedding gigs. I’m having fun. I’m playing all my favorite songs. I’m a pop girly through and through. Um, so…

Michelle Lynne: Yes. So good.

Chloe Swindler: I had someone this week hire me for, for a pop gig, and they’re like, “Sorry, it’s like Earth, Wind, and Fire charts.” I was like, “Are you kidding?”

Michelle Lynne: Sign me up.

Chloe Swindler: Exactly. So it’s saying yes more to those things. Um, even for me, it’s been, I started renting a private studio space in September, and that’s been nice as well. It’s been going to that place and playing solos that I liked playing in middle and high school.

Michelle Lynne: Hmm.

Chloe Swindler: And finding piano backing tracks to them on YouTube and playing them and remembering like, “Oh, wasn’t that fun? We could never do that before.” Or, “I played this better 12 years ago. Let’s figure out why.” So it’s also going back to, for me, even the repertoire that I enjoyed when I was 13. Um, and living at home and didn’t have all this stuff that I was imposing on myself to think about when I pick up my instrument.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, we got to get rid of this stuff.

Chloe Swindler: We do.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: We got to think about the stuff and then get rid of the stuff.

Michelle Lynne: I love that. I’m thinking of a Toccata, Prokofiev Toccata that I used to play that I just loved. My mom called it the chicken song ’cause it’s like all staccato for like four…

Chloe Swindler: Yes.

Michelle Lynne: That’s amazing. Okay, so just circling back to your brand to describe your brand, do you say like performer, educator, entrepreneur? Is that your brand statement?

Chloe Swindler: Yeah, that’s my brand statement: Musician, Educator, Entrepreneur.

Michelle Lynne: And do you dig ever into like more like adjectives around type of personality or who you are on the stage?

Chloe Swindler: For me, no, not really. Um, when I talk about each of them, I will give adjectives. I will give descriptors. But when I first introduce myself to people, like, those are the categories. I don’t say…

Michelle Lynne: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Swindler: I’m a classical musician, I’m a higher education educator, and a, I, I own an LLC. I don’t, I don’t give those first. I keep it broad.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: It’s, it’s a 40, almost 45 minute conversation. That’s how long it feels like for me to describe the, the scope of what I do and, and why I do it.

Michelle Lynne: And I think we’ve only touched on the surface ’cause I can just, I can just glimpse the impact that you’re having on your students. And I just, to me, you’re just such a vibrant, positive… I…

Chloe Swindler: Thank you.

Michelle Lynne: Am so looking forward to seeing your career evolve and develop and grow in this, um. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing all of these thoughts. I would love to talk so much more about all these amazing topics. I think you have so much to give and that’s really beautiful. Is there anything that I didn’t touch on that you would love to mention?

Chloe Swindler: No, I think in general it’s just, I would love for everyone to have an awareness that they, that they have a brand, whether, you know, you do or, or, or not.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Chloe Swindler: Some of the things we talked about, you know, being able to go back through and do some self-reflection will really help you. Um, I will say one thing. I can’t go without saying, is to be really intentional about what you want to do. If you want to get hired for, for classical gigs, saying you’re a jazz player, probably won’t get you hired for classical gigs. Um, if you are someone who’s like me, who wants to do multi-genre work, I won’t say I’m solely a classical player. I’ll say I’m classically trained, that’s my foundation. But I’m a multi-genre artist first.

Michelle Lynne: I love that you’re embracing this multi-genre. I think I need to have you back so we can talk about that. ‘Cause that’s, that’s also been my experience too. Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s a lot we can talk about that, um, breaking this classical mold. Um,

Chloe Swindler: Yes.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, we always finish every episode with an action point, so the action point could be that people do a self-awareness…

Chloe Swindler: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Lynne: Of their brand. Is there one question that they could ask themselves, and maybe they can DM you the answer?

Chloe Swindler: Yeah, I would say, “What do you want to be known for in 10 years?”

Michelle Lynne: Oh, that’s a big one, Chloe. You can make it easy for us.

Chloe Swindler: I’m sorry.

Michelle Lynne: Okay.

Chloe Swindler: It’s a big question.

Michelle Lynne: Okay, it’s a great question. I, I’m going to DM you my answer. Okay, so everybody go to Chloe Swindler Music on Instagram and DM her right now. “What do you want to be known for in 10 years?”

Chloe Swindler: And don’t be shy.

Michelle Lynne: Don’t be shy. We’re going to dream big.

Chloe Swindler: If you had told me in 2013 when I started college that I would be a college professor in a, basically a, an African Studies of Black Studies department where they encouraged me to go out and do classical gigs and multi-genre gigs, and get to talk about my entrepreneurship and teach about it. This job didn’t exist when I started.

Michelle Lynne: Yes.

Chloe Swindler: Uh, 12 years ago or whatever.

Michelle Lynne: Exactly.

Chloe Swindler: So that’s important. You got to dream big, you got to make it happen. If something doesn’t exist yet, you can start to lay those foundations for it to exist.

Michelle Lynne: I love this so much. I’m going to be listening to this conversation again ’cause I’m so inspired. Chloe, thank you so much for your time, and it’s been great having you on.

Chloe Swindler: Thank you.

Michelle Lynne: You’re welcome. Okay, everybody go DM Chloe. And until next time, be fearless.