Emotional health for musicians with guest Ella Hooper

Michelle Lynne: Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Fearless Artist Podcast. My name is Michelle Lin and today I’m thrilled to have on as a guest, Ella Hooper. Ella, welcome.

Ella Hooper: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited and so proud of you for starting this podcast.

Michelle Lynne: Oh my gosh. We have so much to talk about. So Ella is a life coach and also the founder of a school in Redding, California for artists called the Bethel Conservatory of the Arts,

Michelle Lynne: BCA for short, and Ella came into my life, I want to say 2016 or 17 when I went to a leadership conference at Bethel Church in California, and I saw that they had started a program for artists, uh, acting at that time, only acting, right?

Ella Hooper: Yeah. We are acting and dance.

Michelle Lynne: And dance. Okay. They did a promo video right before one of the services and you guys were talking about helping artists develop their gift and this unique sense of their own purpose and, uh, not having to perform to these, you know, very high standards of the industry and worrying about being accepted for the audition or all of the pressures that come with the industry. There was just something in the messaging of “Come discover your unique gift that is not comparable and the fullness of who you can be.” And I just was sitting there and I need to talk to these people. So there was an open house and I came up. And I was like, eager beaver, and I ran up to you and I was jet lagged. And I like word vomited on you for 30 minutes about all the perfectionism and shame and toxic comparison that I was in and how I knew I was keeping myself stuck. And I’m just diving into the deep end here and then you just were so gracious and looked at me with this most loving compassion and was like, you need to get shame out of your life. And then I cried and cried and cried. And I left that conversation and I told a friend, I just had a life changing conversation. Like I knew that something was going to shift. And then I, I just started working with you as my life coach for like a number of years. And you’ve just helped me overcome so much of the things that we’re going to hopefully touch on today. Perfectionism, how to handle rejection as an artist, how to stop comparing yourself to everyone else, how to believe that you have a unique gift. And, uh, how do you handle like the real world’s pressures and demands of this, you know, insanely high level that we’re all striving to achieve and often feel like we’re falling short of. Um, so all of that led to me feeling like I could actually tackle the things that I’d been avoiding and you’ve just had such a huge role in my life. So first of all, I want to thank you. And second of all, I want to introduce you to our audience because I think everyone needs to hear the message that you’ve been sharing with artists.

Ella Hooper: Oh, thank you so much. And when I first met you, I think I was in my second or third year of life coaching. And so when I met you, they talk about having your ideal audience. And I think when I met you, it was an instant connection of like, I love working with people like Michelle, like who are professional, who have such high standards. Because I think sometimes when we think of self-love or having compassion on ourselves, we can fall into that passivity with our creativity. And I loved how tenacious you were and how hungry you were, but like so many of my clients, um, even in my own self, like you can reach a level of like, you’ve kind of freeze because the standard is so high and the expectation to be a great artist is so high, but then your soul is dying. And so how do you reconcile both of them? So it was such an honor to meet you. And I have always felt like it’s such a life giving experience whenever we meet and connect. So yeah, but I’m so excited to chat to your audience today on my favorite topics.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. Our calls for me always felt like a breath of fresh air. They always felt like I would come in and say whatever is going on, what I was stuck with, what I was worried about, you know, overthinking, I’m a chronic overthinker and you would just help me kind of loosen, take the pressure off is basically a lot of what we’ve been doing. How can you still hold yourself to a standard of excellence and pursuing without this crushing perfectionism? Because for me, I know there’s different versions of perfectionism. And I think the one that I have subscribed to in the past is, that is so far beyond what I think I can do, I’m just going to completely hide and avoid and numb myself so that I don’t need to think about how desperately I want to be at the top because I don’t quite believe that I can get myself there. So I’m not even going to try, right? Because I don’t want to feel that horrible feeling of failure. And that’s some things that we hear a lot from the clients we have at the fearless artists as well as like we’re taught from a young age to count our mistakes. So how can we give ourselves space and freedom to develop as artists? And believe that what we are doing is important and worthy when we’re also so aware of this inner critic and yeah, navigating all of these voices.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. So it’s kind of like, I, I think a lot of artists, especially those who go and get their master’s degree or go to conservatory. And I personally went to, um, I trained to be an actress in Australia, so I did three-year conservatory. And so I remember. You really learn what a good standard is. And I know like you’re a musician. So when you go to a concert, you can see what level everyone’s at. So you’re actually trained to measure like how good someone is. And I even noticed like when I was in drama school, like we would go see a play and then just critique and tear to shreds the actor or whatever. And I think because when you’re in conservatory, you are learning what’s good and you actually need to learn how to be excellent. But I think there’s one of my students described wholehearted artists, which is the class that I teach at the conservatory, is like you go to conservatory to learn the skill of becoming an artist and you actually need to have that development. But then the wholehearted part is learning actually to be in development, learning to love yourself while you’re in process, learning to have compassion on yourself. Whereas like, I think that sometimes we put all this expectation on us to already have arrived and we have a fantasy arrival kind of mindset. And so I think that like, and especially in conservatory, or just being in the professional field, you have the people that Brene Brown calls like your box seats, like the people that kind of create the rules of the world. I work a lot with actors and so there’s an Academy, like if you want to be a part, like win an Academy Award, there’s a standard and there’s that. But then sometimes like we live so outside ourselves. That we lose our own sense of self as an artist. So the wholehearted piece is really learning how to gain back your sense of self. So for me, I would live so outside of myself looking back at me. So what does my instructor think about me? What does the audience think about me? And I would climb out of my world and jump in someone else’s world and look back at me. I could never be in my own experience. I could never actually be connected to, do I like that or don’t I like that? Why don’t I like that? And so. I think as an artist we want to find out, we leave intention of wanting to be so authentic and express ourselves and have a unique expression, but then we’re so living with the praise of people, like how, how do they perceive me? I think that it’s a rumble and I think it’s a tension and because when you’re a perfectionist, you live so black and white, you can’t handle ambiguity. You can’t handle tension. And so a lot of, um, becoming wholehearted in pursuing your creativity is learning how to rumble with tension of like, yeah, I do need to practice to be excellent at my job, but I also don’t have to kill myself in the process. So that’s kind of the journey that I love watching artists go on.

Michelle Lynne: There’s so much to unpack here. When you say kill yourself, meaning that kind of self-judgment or kill yourself with working hours or…

Ella Hooper: I think both. I love that you bring up self-judgment because I think that judgment is one of the biggest blocks as humans. So, if I have someone, a client sit with me and share, like, confess and share like a really shameful or hard, embarrassing moment, whether it’s like a painful audition or whatever, I’ll be, the first place I’ll look at is where are you holding judgment towards yourself? Like, where are you holding that judgment? And because we think that if we judge something, we’ll make it better. And I think there’s a little bit of truth to that. Sometimes judgment and shaming ourselves does make us better. It drives us in a certain direction. But then I think that part, and it’s dramatic language to say killing us, but I think that words have the ability to create life or bring death. And so when we have, when we’re caught in a judgment cycle with ourselves, we actually block ourselves off from options and it gets us out of like, it gets us out of our creative mind where we can see other options. I mean, you went on this journey and, other clients have gone on this journey is when you reach so many dead ends. Because of judgment and like being able to like push through your glass ceiling. But we have to get rid of judgment first to be able to smash through the glass ceiling. And that’s why I’ve loved watching your journey because you’ve been able to smash through glass ceilings and, take your career further than maybe what judgment would have like said for your career, if that makes sense.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this whole idea of self-compassion, I’d love for you to speak on that for me. You know, the perfectionism thing you’re touching on is black and white. It’s labeling, it’s good and bad. It’s, you know, counting the mistakes. But self-compassion is always something that I rolled my eyes at because it seems. Like a weakness to just pat yourself in the back and say, Oh no, you’re fine. Keep going, sweetheart. And it’s like, well, no, like actually you have to play really well. And if you don’t, you’re not going to make it. We grew up doing competitions. Um, you’re again, like pitted against the next person playing the same type of music. Like this is how we are trained. And what you said about leaving a play and tearing it to shreds. I mean, the exact same thing happens with. Concerts for us. Like we leave a concert and I’m so allergic to this now that it angers me. But I’ve had very many years of watching someone perform, give everything that they can, and then you leave and start criticizing, and this is normal among musicians, this is normal. So then when you want to build your audience and give your gift to the world, which is why I believe. We’ve been given this gift is to give it to the world. You think that the world is going to tear you to shreds because that’s how we are. I don’t know. We are the trained ones. We’re the educated ones. We know the difference. We know the nuances, but I, I’m starting to realize like the general audience doesn’t. And in the past it’d be like, well, that’s because they don’t know. And, you know, so they don’t know what they’re talking about, but actually you’re touching a lot of people when you share with those people who love you, no matter what, no matter how it goes. So maybe you can just share with the audience, like how do you approach the topic of self-compassion isn’t a weakness. It’s actually going to propel you forward.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. Well, first of all, I believe that love and kindness is the most powerful force in the world and it’s so untapped. It’s like the best kept secret because I watch it. When, like, it’s like when you see a movie and someone responds to the character that deserves the most, biggest scolding and the biggest telling off, and that person brings kindness and then shifts. Like, you know, the way that they see themselves, the way that they show up and then they’re motivated because they feel loved and they feel safe. And we think like, you know, when you think in terms of growth, we think that shame will like be a manager of our life and make us better, but actual true, like even scientifically that like true transformation comes from safety. And so when we feel safe, we actually. Are our true self and we’re like, we’re worthy. We feel lovable and we feel like we want to play and grow and evolve and become enlightened. And so what self-compassion is, um, what Michelle’s bringing up is like, there’s actually research behind it by a lady called Kristen Neff. She’s a self-compassion researcher. And in her research, they said, when you feel better about yourself, you make better choices. And so when we’re feeling good, that’s usually when we’re not self-sabotaging. And I know for me personally, like I have dealt with self-sabotage like a lot of people. And so it wasn’t until I became a compassionate witness to my life and a kind witness to my life that I was able to kind of look objectively of like, Oh, well, of course that happened to you. And that would make you feel stressed out. And I think the more knowledge I get about the nervous system, like who we are when we’re stressed, so then you have more information about why someone’s behaving the way they are. And so you can have compassion from that perspective. And I think sometimes people think compassion is weakness because I think it depends on how it’s been modeled to us. So if we have. Someone, let’s say our dad is super compassionate, but he’s quite passive. So it often, you know, it comes from our modeling in our childhood and our parents. So dad was really compassionate, but he was quite passive. Then it’s like my view of compassion is that. Well, nothing gets done if you’re compassionate because that was what was modeled to me. So it’s really important when you’re starting to engage in an existence, it’s like another universe of living where you’re being kind and compassionate towards yourself is how was it modeled to me? So for me, probably similar to you, I just thought it was passive. I just thought it wasn’t really productive. But then I really started learning how to, um, in the first year of us building actually the conservatory, it was like the most stressful becoming accredited, learning how to teach and all of that. It was like, we were making so many mistakes and like failing and it was like an awful experience. And I remember my coach said, the goal isn’t that you build the most amazing school this year. The goal is that you actually become best friends with compassion. And so it’s helpful to even personify, like, I actually want to be friends with compassion and understanding. So people who don’t like the word compassion, I’ll be like, yeah, but you know what it feels like to feel deeply misunderstood. So compassion looks like being fully understood and known. And so I really like view compassion as like being on your own team and being your biggest cheerleader. It’s like self-celebration. So you’re becoming aware of like, I’m really proud of you. That was really brave getting up and performing in front of all those people. And so you start to clock and become aware. And then the other thing with compassion is often we’re looking for an authority figure to come and say to us, you’re amazing. You should really go for this. You could make a career out of it. And so some of it is really learning to have that as our own voice. So we’re not waiting for someone else to say it. They call it like self-validation is like you learn to actually validate yourself and listen to yourself. So in that you become on your own team and they talk about where does self-belief come from? Because as an artist, you need to have tons of self-belief and it’s actually in the way that you relate to yourself and the way that you get back up when you do have a rejection from an audition or all those moments. So yeah, I mean, compassion is definitely something you need a coach or someone to lead you through, but then you can start adopting it as a way of relating to yourself.

Michelle Lynne: Okay, so you said, you know, I’m so proud of you. You were so brave to get up there and perform… give me an example of what like a judgmental response would look like and then the compassionate response and how we can train ourselves to kind of, you know, you said love and kindness is so powerful to, I think, I mean, from what we’ve done together in our sessions. Learning to be kind to yourself means that eventually you’ll get closer to the result that you actually do want, but we as perfectionists have maybe learned being hard on yourself is the way to get the results. So now it’s kind of retraining your inner self-talk to use kindness and compassion to get the results because I don’t, I mean, still as, you know, a person like me, it’s like, yeah, but I still want to be good. Like I said, I don’t want to. You know, because that’s why compassion always felt like an excuse because it’s like, Oh, you’re just saying that whatever level you’re at, it’s good enough. And like pat on the head, it’s okay. But no, we are trying to compel ourselves forward to reaching that full potential, but we’re doing it in a different way that is more healthy.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. Like compassion is like when I first started teaching on self-compassion, all my students would be like, I’m not going to class because hashtag compassion, self-compassion. And I’m like, they’re not getting it. They’re not getting it because actually being compassionate towards myself and loving myself is actually loving my future self well. So it like, for example. The compassionate, like if I struggle so much with procrastination, the way that I would engage with myself is like, Oh, like it’s hard. Like that’s passivity. That’s not compassion because actually, ultimately we want to be a really good performer. We want to be good at what we do. And so loving myself well is actually like becoming more of an observer of your experience rather than like kind of like my friend Jenna, she calls it like being like a scientist. I’m like, Oh, I wonder why this is happening. There’s something often like when we’re in cycles, but there’s often something, a missing piece. And so we’re looking at it from more of a scientific experience rather than like, I am bad because ultimately going, I am bad, I am bad. That will make you actually want to give up. And so when using an example of like performing, the reason why, like, first of all, it’s brave because you’re stepping out into uncertainty. Like when you go and do your candlelight performances, you have a history of performing. And so there is a confidence that you can go, okay, I can do this. Um, you have history of doing that, but especially when new performers are coming in, like it’s the most courageous thing because it’s actually quite out of control. And for me, when I was performing in drama school, I would get so much anxiety leading up to performance because I didn’t know how to navigate uncertainty. And so I’m having compassion for me learning who I am in uncertainty and what I need. And I think that the moment before even research says like when the moment before you do something brave, like go perform or go to an audition, that’s the moment where you’re most prone to shame. It’s like that voice of accusation that says you didn’t practice enough. You’re not doing a good job. And so if I like compassionately, let’s say I didn’t practice enough, and I have that whole experience where I kind of like hurt myself because I didn’t practice. I don’t look back and go like, you idiot, you should have practiced more. I go, Oh, how can I love myself really well by practicing more in the future? And like, I get out of like a condemnation. High stakes, like this is my one chance and I blew it and it’s all over. Whereas compassion says like, it’s more abundant. There’ll be another opportunity. And how can I love myself in the future by practicing, if that makes sense? So it’s a tension.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I agree with you because I’m on the other side of this now, I hope, but why is this so important? Can you speak to that? Because I think a lot of people can listen, just roll their eyes and be like, oh, this is so woo. Like what, what does love have to do with it? You just need the result.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. I think that you can get results through the other way, but most people are not. Getting the results. I think the biggest thing is when you have, um, it’s almost like you’re in a relationship with shame. Like let’s say you’re in a marriage with shame, like personifying shame, like shame will make you feel awesome if like, I am amazing if I have a really good performance, but then it’ll have, like, you’ll feel the worst when you have a bad performance rather than learning how to stay grounded in the midst of like, you know, the rollercoaster of being an artist. But shame is like a bad boyfriend that abusive boyfriend that you’re like, Oh my gosh, I’ll go backwards and forwards with because you get a rush from feeling good. And then you go. You know, backwards and forwards. And so the payoff to self-compassion is actually like, so using that example of the bad boyfriend, it actually alters your perception of yourself where you actually have. Like such low self-worth that you feel like almost like a shell of a human. And I think what self-compassion does is actually keeps you in a space of worthiness. And value. We live in such a self-esteem culture. That’s like, you have the nice car, you have the great husband, you look awesome. And we really do celebrate that. But then we kind of get to a point where we’re like, those things aren’t fulfilling. And then we want to live a life of fulfillment. And wholeness and being at peace. And so having a kind internal voice actually fosters a sense of safety and a sense of abundance. And I mean, I’ve watched you even go into more and more abundance by being kinder to yourself. So I think that shame will take you so far, but it will lead you to a dead end. Whereas compassion will actually take you to a place of expansion and more opportunities and the divine of opportunities coming from nowhere because you believe you’re worthy. So worthiness is the magnetic field. Like we attract things based on what we sense. Our sense of self-worth is. So when we engage compassionately towards us, we become actually more magnetizing to people. People become more drawn to us, if that makes sense.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. That’s so good. There’s just so much here. I was just thinking of different examples. you mentioned shame, the high shame and the low shame is I think how you described it to me once where you said you have a great performance and then you think, Oh, like I’m going to make it or I am making it or whatever. And then if there’s something that doesn’t go as well, you can easily rollercoaster into the other direction. So having this kind of compassion almost gives you more stability or groundedness or a long term view…. I was listening back to our first call before this episode. This is what, six, seven years ago. And I was applying for different programs and I had gotten rejected from one thing. And I was putting all of my hopes on this one professor, if he could, teach me. And it was just like always looking for the next kind of key to build. Well, you know, when you’re building your career, you’re, you’re looking, you’re scanning your environment constantly. Like where’s the way to success? Especially as you know, creatives, I think are driven, maybe a bit, can be intense because you have to be so self-motivated all the time. No one is calling you, telling you what the next step is. So you’re trying to figure it out. So there’s this pressure, there’s this intensity, like, what am I going to do? I don’t know what to do. Like, you have to look for what’s, who’s the golden ticket that’s going to get you out of this into the next level. And it can be so scary and frustrating because you just don’t know. So then when you get these rejection letters, I know. Rejection Maybe we can talk about that a little bit. How do you navigate rejection as an artist? Because that for me, I struggled with that for years. If I got a no, it could send me into a spiral. And that also just prevented me from picking up the pieces of wherever I was at and trying for the next thing. It was like, Oh no, like I put all of my worth, you’re saying the word worth on this one opportunity and it didn’t go through. So now what? Like, I’m not good enough. I’ve been given evidence by the industry. If we talk about standards and of course it’s such a narrow view because you’re giving like this one professor, all of this power over you, but like you in your head, you think, This is the industry saying that you’re not going to make it. You’re not good enough. Also, the age thing as a classical musician, and also probably as an actress, and maybe we can just share a little bit of your thoughts on rejection.

Ella Hooper: I think that, just to invite in, as part of the self-compassion research, Krista Neff goes into common humanity. And so I think when we feel rejection, like I know when I feel rejection, there’s almost like this, um, it’s like I’m underwater, I’m outside of my body. It’s like this tingly. Awful, like low, just very disembodied kind of feeling. And it’s very, very painful. And so for some people, rejection is like an intolerable pain. Like it’s like the most awful pain.

Michelle Lynne: It can actually feel like a physical pain.

Ella Hooper: It is like a physical pain because our body’s so involved, like our body experiences it. So like the common humanity piece invites me into, like, I’m not the only one who experiences this, because I think if we don’t actually learn to tend to our wounds, they’ll become bigger wounds. So if I have so much rejection, it’s actually more about how I interpret the rejection. Whereas there’s an actress, and she’s in Jurassic Park and I think she was in the help. I’m like forgetting her name, but she was on an interview and she talked about how she realized you need to do something like 64 auditions. In order to actually get a big role or a significant role that’s paying. And so her factually, so she had stamina to actually go, I’m accepting that there’s rejection. And I’m not going to make this a story about me. And I think like she got to her 46th audition… And then she actually landed a role, that was paying. And I think that that was a healthy way of viewing rejection. It’s like dating. Like if you start going on dates, you will get rejected. And I think that it’s really important to just accept that that’s part of. What courage looks like, but the main thing is like looking at the story that you make up about you from the situation. And that’s why getting a coach and getting counselors, because what you’re needing to do is to actually let it process it through it in a way that it doesn’t hit your self-worth. Because I think what we do is like, it’s easy to say like, Oh, I don’t want my identity to come from my job, but it’s like, it’s the hardest thing to do. Like we actually need help with it. But my biggest thing is like, I actually have a bigger tolerance for rejection now because I don’t self-reject. I’ve learned to actually really love Ella. And so it’s not to say that I won’t. Be triggered or get affected by it when it happens, but I’m becoming more and more connected to my true self. And so when I experience rejection, I have a faster recovery time. So it’s like, I think we can’t avoid rejection if we’re going to, you know, cause sometimes we actually need feedback. Like we need to know that sometimes like we need to improve in certain areas, but I think it’s being sensitive and learning how to not let it alter you of your perception of yourself. Cause I think that’s the key.

Michelle Lynne: I completely agree with you. We’ve worked through so much of this, obviously. And I would add to that rejection isn’t often about you anyway. There are so many factors that go into rejection. And we talked about this with our clients in the membership. You know, one of our clients just did a big competition and made it to the final round and didn’t place. And then the feedback is just, yeah, you say amazing. That’s interesting. Because many people would say, Oh, she didn’t get it. Right. That’s the difference in the responses. Like, how do you teach yourself to celebrate? Like, wow, you made it all the way to the finals. You beat out hundreds of people. You’ve established your name. Like now it’s like, you’ve got to retrain your mind to see the potential and the opportunities and the possibilities rather than coming on this crushing, like, Oh, you didn’t get this one coveted spot. Like. It’s all or nothing.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. I mean, I do think it’s amazing that this client showed up. So I have a different measuring stick for success. And so sometimes I feel like I’m going against the grain of what like other people would deem success. Because those moments of being the best are so fleeting. I work with people who are phenomenal at what they do. Like they’re best New York Times bestsellers, they’re actors that they’re doing incredible things, but they have not learned how to take in that moment of celebration. And so I say, Oh, that’s amazing because I measure success by showing up. And like putting, getting back out there. So success would look like this client of yours, like actually getting back in the ring again. And I would celebrate that after what maybe they perceive that as a setback. And so I think I’ve just shifted my view of what success is. Because ultimately my goal is mastery. Like I want to be in something for the long term, long haul. So I have to be willing to actually. Like one of my friends, he is a DJ and he’s like, you just have to kind of go into the entertainment industry, like, do I want to be doing this in 20 years? Yeah, I do. Well, then this moment is a blip on the grand scheme of things. Does that make sense?

Michelle Lynne: That’s interesting. Yeah, that’s interesting to think more long term. And that’s exactly what I noticed in my first call with you listening to the recording. I was not at all thinking, it’s almost like this little connecting the dots and you’re only able to see the next thing and having no perspective on overall artistic growth or long term career planning, or, you know, as you’re saying, I really liked how you said your recovery time from rejection is faster. I think that’s something that I’ve definitely shifted as well. Like now, if something doesn’t work out. I’m very stable. It doesn’t shake me like it used to, you know, I remember I, I didn’t get into a master’s program, that I had applied for. And I was like for six months I was gone. I was unable to process. I was just stuck. And as you’re saying, like, it can be so physically painful rejection because we attribute our worth to the answer. Yes or no, without taking in all these other factors. So I think having a much more larger view of like, what does this even mean if you did get it? And just coming back to like putting the attachment we put on prizes. I have another client who won third prize in a major international competition. And then now says that it didn’t do anything for their career overall. And that person is out there creating their own opportunities. And so it’s like, okay, we can attach so much meaning to getting the yes, but ultimately. Did it make that big of a difference or should we just be focusing on that internal artistic growth? I’d like for you to speak a little bit about you’re saying celebrating yourself what does that give you and also when you say being connected to yourself? What does that mean?

Ella Hooper: Hmm. Yeah. I know it’s so abstract, like this idea of being connected to yourself. I think it’s like a huge piece is self-awareness. I used to be that person that did not know I was dehydrated. So I would just drink coffee all day and wouldn’t know that I needed water. And so that would be an example of like, Oh, I’m tuned in and I need a glass of water. So that’s like a way of deciding to be connected to your body. But then. There’s the next piece, which is I’m connected to my emotions. Like I’m actually connected to my heart because my head says I can’t afford this or I can’t do this and I can’t like all the logical reasons why you’re disqualified from something. But my heart, if I learned to give space to my heart, like that’s usually where I’ll feel connection to myself. When I feel disconnected from myself is when I’m actually making choices that feel like, you know, that feeling where you’re like, I’m compromising. I’m totally doing something. I don’t want like, it’s not good for me to do this, but I’m doing it. That would be an example of disconnected from yourself. But being connected to yourself is like, I feel at peace with my decision, or I feel at peace and connected to what’s happening in my heart. Oh, I do feel disappointment. So like there is toxic positivity that says, Oh, rejection, I should recover from rejection. So feel amazing. Like actually no, like being connected to your heart is like, Oh my gosh. I can see Ella that you feel really sad. You feel really disappointed because you thought that winning this prize would mean a sense of security, or it would mean that you are significant. And so I think when we can like learn to narrate what’s happening inside us. Number one, we’ve become better communicators in relationships, but also we actually get connected to our experience. And so as artists, we actually really need to be good at narrating what’s happening inside us so that we know how to get our needs met. And when our needs are met, we actually feel at peace. We feel connected. We feel good, basically. And I’m all in the business of feeling good.

Michelle Lynne: I know I like that idea of acknowledging your disappointment and saying, I know what this meant to you. I see you, and this is all self-talk. I see you. I see that you really cared about this. That’s why this hurts so much. I’m going to honor that feeling rather than saying you shouldn’t be upset. You know, you didn’t practice enough anyway. You know, whatever the shame or the judgment voice would say, hang on a second, I only hurt this much because that’s how much it mattered to me. So I’m going to let myself sit here for a bit and then from what I’ve learned, that’s how you move through feelings is by like actually acknowledging them, allowing them, you know, Brene Brown says feel to heal. So hey, I’m disappointed and oh, I heard Amanda Cook say recently disappointment is just a sign of how much hope you had. And isn’t it beautiful that you had hope?

Ella Hooper: Yes.

Michelle Lynne: The sensitive artist’s soul in us is just really, really hoping that we can be everything that we’re created to be, everything that we’re, we’re meant to give, everything, you know, like we have these hopes and dreams within us that we maybe acknowledge or don’t. But like, ultimately I think, like we talk about everything at the Fearless Artists about goal setting. Our clients come in, it’s like, all right, what are your goals? What do you want to do? Let’s make it happen. But ultimately that ties down to like the dream. Like what is the dream in you? And that unique, unique sense of self and purpose that no other artist can give. And that’s how we, you know, then we get into the science stuff about like branding. Like how do you, those are the practicals, but like ultimately it comes down to like what’s in your heart and what do you want to give to your audience and what do you, what do you want to share? And if we keep using this harmful shame judgment language. You’re not able to open up fully and blossom into what you’re meant to be.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. And even the science behind like constantly overthinking, like you don’t make your best psychological choices from that place of overthinking. And I think as artists, we know the term being in flow. And so what self-compassion does, it actually releases oxytocin to your brain, which actually makes you get in that flow state. And so I think that like. The reason why we want to learn how to be kind to ourselves is because it opens us up in more abundance and possibility to see the options, you know, to be able to like pioneer something or innovate, like we can’t really innovate if we’re in that stuck judgment cycle.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. And one of the reasons I, I came to you in the first place is because my love hate relationship with practicing and practicing for me has always been a place where I am extremely critical and judgmental to the point where like my inner voice is so loud that I can’t just give myself a chance. So getting into flow is one of the most magical things. Cause if you’re in a flow, then that inner critic is not nattering at you constantly about how it sounds terrible. And you like, don’t know your notes and what are you doing? You know, all that garbage. And you’re in this flow state, which actually allows you to like learn and progress. And you said to me, which kind of changed my life, like, Oh, you don’t hate practicing. You hate how you talk to yourself when you’re practicing. And that was like, Oh, that’s a huge light bulb. Because when you tell yourself like, Oh, I hate practicing. I just going to avoid it. I’m not avoiding it. Cause I don’t want to work because it was so weird. Like I work really hard in a number of areas. So why was it so hard for me to do the work here? It was like, Oh, I’m just like, I’m so allergic to that inner critic. And I don’t know how to calm her down and tell her to be nice to me. So I’m just going to not talk to her at all. Like I’m just going to avoid, like, that’s always been my path is avoidance. So you’ve helped me like rewire that and you told me once that you went on like a judgment fast and it’s like, I’m not going to judge myself at all and just take a complete break from it because let’s just see what happens. Yeah, do you want to elaborate a little bit on that?

Ella Hooper: Yeah. I think that like, I can get on such a soapbox about judgment because I definitely went through a detox and I recognize that all of my judgment, yeah, like comes from my wounding. Or judgment is like a self-protection thing. Like if I judge something, then I’ll know to avoid that. And we actually all have like right and wrong flags that go on inside us. Like we naturally have those, that kind of voice to keep us safe. And it’s a good thing, but it’s almost like judgment is leading our life or kind of being the gatekeeper of everything good in our life. I actually do a debate in my class on whether judgment is right or wrong. And I ask a very black and white question because, and it pisses them off. It’s great. And then they have to debate whether it’s right or wrong. And I love it every year. I’ll get the most amazing kind of insights that students will walk away from that exercise going. I came in thinking just judgment was bad. We shouldn’t judge people. Or then you have other people who were like, judgment is like the thing that makes the world go round. Like you have these kind of extremes. But judgment isn’t like. necessarily something that you camp out at, but it just gives you a lot of information. So I notice my judgment in life is often something reflective of what I judge about myself or a wounding. So if I have a wounding in an area around something in my past, I’ll often make judgments towards other people like that. You know, when you’re like, Oh, I have a sibling that does that annoying thing. And so anyone in my adult life that does that same thing, I just think it’s annoying. I think that like judgment gives us really good information. And then sometimes like the bigger the judgment, maybe the bigger the wound. And so that’s where we need to actually have compassion and get some healing in that place. And I think that, my friend Courtney Lancaster, she says our dreams need our healing. Because often like The healing that needs to come is around our judgments and especially as creatives like we want to be the open hearted, curious individuals in the world that innovate, whereas we can’t do that when we’re like operating from our wounding and our judgments all the time.

Michelle Lynne: So, is there a way that you can make that practical for someone listening and saying okay, but how do I heal my wounding, like this is a little maybe conceptual for some of our listeners.

Ella Hooper: Yeah, I don’t think you can really do it alone. Like, I actually think you probably need a depending on what you’ve gone through in your life. Coaches really, like, can focus on the past to move you forward. It depends. There’s lots of forms of therapy. But I noticed like, it’s really like wounding. I think it’s more about learning how to process through pain. So, we spent a lot of our life trying to avoid pain. And so I know like when I, cause I see a therapist and a coach, I like three people I see. And so I go up showing like one of my consultants, she’s really focused on somatic work. So we talked about like our body gets so affected by rejection or whatever. And so I worked through that emotional response. Cause again, I’m in the business of feeling good. So that’s why I get therapy. Whereas our pain, like if we carry that around, like it’s actually not serving us. So, tending to the wounds is actually learning like self-regulation. There’s lots of tools out there about learning how to regulate your emotions, learning how to understand your emotions. It’s really, you becoming the greatest student of yourself, like really learning about like who you are when you’re stressed and who you are when you’re at your best. So that’s what I kind of mean about tending to your wounds. And I noticed like, I’ve become way less judgmental of people. I mean, I still have judgment towards people for sure, but way less judgmental. Because I think I have a deep sense of how much compassion has healed me. So of course that person, like they just need more love and they won’t be responding that way or living that way. You know, that’s my kind of view.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah.

Ella Hooper: I’ve seen the payoff of it.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. That’s beautiful. I’ve also noticed thankfully that I’ve become less judgmental towards others and that’s been healing for myself because getting out of this, you know, when I, when I walk off stage now, I’m not counting my mistakes. Maybe I’ve gone a little bit too far with the judgment detox but I’m so much more focused on, I think, overall growth and this contribution that I’m giving to the audiences, the audience’s response, how people are experiencing the concert, the connections, the relationships being built. Yeah, that for me has been healing. So I don’t know. I mean, I know that there’s a middle ground of again, coming back to the standard of excellence and Classical musicians I think are, still counting mistakes, but I think there’s other things that we also need to focus on. And it’s a lot healthier. I also have noticed that I’ve started defending other people who put themselves online. Like if they get nasty comments I will go defend. Because they’re being brave and they’re putting themselves out there and nobody else knows how they feel. And I get so angry. I mean, I just want to circle back to you talking about the nasty cheap seats for a second, because that changed, changed my life. Don’t listen to the cheap seats. That is the people who sit in the $5 seats and they throw down the tomatoes at you and you’re the brave one in the arena or like, you know, the concert stage or whatever stage it is. You are putting yourself out there, you have practiced and prepared, however much or little your little judgmental voice says, you’re still doing it, and then these people are going to sit there and throw stuff at you, excuse me, where are you on stage, where is your social media content, like, why aren’t you talking on your stories, don’t tell me how tired I look on my stories when I don’t see you talking at all, like, hello, I’m being brave. Like, you know, so I don’t know, just tell us a little bit about the nasty seats.

Ella Hooper: Well, I think that like, um, well the cheap seats, it’s Brene Brown has a brilliant talk on YouTube. You all should go check it out called why your critics don’t count. And she talks about reserving seats for the critics, like accepting that they’re going to be in the arena, like whatever your brave space is, whether that’s performing, or like your brave space could be really anything or like social media, like showing up, I know a lot of people like in Australia coming from Australian environment are like, well, that’s really self-absorbed chatting to the camera. Like that can be a judgment. And so like, I’ve had to work through that judgment. Because the thing is like, I don’t judge people when they do that, but then we fear that they’ll be doing that to us. Yeah, the cheap seats is basically people who are critics, not contributors. And so they’re kind of sitting on the sidelines talking about how they should have done that better and almost like this superiority. But then you look at their, your life and you’re like, What have you done? What have you done? But the thing is like, because I get my students to do the exercise with the arena and a lot of them will be like, oh my gosh, I focus way too much on the cheap seats. So it’s like thinking about when you go out to perform and whether you’re a pianist or like whatever. Instrument that you play. It’s thinking about who am I emphasizing on? Am I thinking about the cheap seats or am I thinking about the box seats? Oh my gosh, my professor’s going to be in there. And what, what he says gets to dictate whether I’m good or bad, like that black and white thinking. Whereas I think that Like, we actually need to be open to more nuance. So, the fact that, you know, you get messages of people saying, oh my gosh, that really moved me, that actually was a life-changing experience when you played, you know, that Coldplay song that meant so much, and I was with my boyfriend, and I’m like, that’s why we do art! That’s like our why. And so it, like, I think when we focus and celebrate on those testimonies, like that’s when we can kind of like hold both things, like in one hand, I want to be, I want the professor to think I’m awesome. That would be nice. Like, I’m not going to pretend that that’s not there, but I’m also going to value the fact that I have someone like Ella, who doesn’t really play an instrument, who just thinks that Michelle is the best. I’m going to really value the fact that she just enjoyed my concert. Like that as well. And so I think we want to have a bit more complexity and nuance with our approach to our performances and the things that we put out in the world. Because you’re always going to have critics.

Michelle Lynne: Yes.

Ella Hooper: You just will…

Michelle Lynne: For anyone unaware of the ARENA exercise, can you just outline quickly how it works? So the ARENA is It’s the artist in the middle.

Ella Hooper: Yeah. So she uses the Theodore Roosevelt quote, which is it’s not the critics who count it’s the man who’s actually in the arena. And I’m going to butcher the quote, but she uses that quote. And I’ve basically taken it further. I think it’s in her book, daring greatly. And she talks about like, when we do something brave, they’ll often be the voice of scarcity, which is like a lot of artists scarcity might look like you’re getting too old, or you didn’t practice enough, not enough time, not enough money, not enough resource, like that’s the not enough. Things. So you usually have that voice of scarcity. So it’s identifying all the voices. One of them is comparison. I’m not as good as this person, or at least I’m better than that person. Like we kind of either upward or downward comparison. And then there’s shame, which is the feeling of like, not good enough. And that’s where we have imposter syndrome is a big one for artists where we feel like if they found out this about me, you know, this would disqualify me. You have the self-compassion seat, which is really your self-talk and the way that you. Relate to yourself. And then there’s the empathy seats. So sometimes we’re trying to win over the critics, but she’s like, my husband is my biggest fan and I don’t ever give him any weight. Or my mom or like someone like for me, my mom’s like my on my team and my biggest fan. But sometimes I’m like, Less worried about what she thinks and thinking more about like, no, but I want to win over the people I don’t know. And it just creates awareness of where we’re putting the most emphasis. And I usually do that exercise with artists because I want to know like some people, like for me, it was always scarcity, not enough money to pursue my dreams. So I had to really work through a scarcity mindset, but then for some other people, it might be comparison. Like they really struggle with comparing themselves to other people. And so the exercise just creates awareness so that you can keep show up, be brave, do it awkward, do the best you can, and just keeping like the repetition of just keep getting back up, getting better.

Michelle Lynne: Yes. I think this category of people, your inner circle, their voices should be the loudest. And you’re right. You’re saying this about your mom. You know, often you want to win over all of the people. Let’s say you’re playing for 500 people. You want all 500 to love you after. It’s just, it’s not going to happen like that. And when we put so much weight on these strangers that we don’t know. So why do we care so much about their opinion? Or we put all the weight on, you said the box seats referring to the professors, the people in the industry, the people who are the managers, the promoters, the people who have importance, you’re like, okay. My whole value comes from their opinion. So if they accept me, then I’m good. And if they don’t, then I’m bad. And these kinds of like judgmental, black and white that we get into. So now you’re saying to have more nuance and to keep things kind of more well-rounded and starting with yourself, having that awareness of what’s going on internally and what you said this earlier in the conversation, what do I think? Was that good for me? How did I experience this performance? Am I proud of my progress? Can we learn to celebrate progress? You know, I recently had a concert and walked off and the person started counting mistakes and criticizing and I was like, I can’t do this right now. We just pour our hearts out for an hour and half… And I’m going to need to sleep and eat before I can go back and start rewatching and saying what needs to be better. But like, I can no longer bash myself as soon as I walk off stage, I need to first honor that I gave something. And you had said this to me once, success looks like showing up. And I never really knew what that meant. But I think this is part of it too. Like I came onto a stage and I gave what I had in my heart and that is so beautiful. Like, how can we not celebrate anyone who does that? whether you think it’s cringy or bad or good or not, can we not just say like this person came with what they had and they gave it to you? Like that is to me so beautiful. And I think that is how we become fearless that no matter where the level is, you know what you’re capable of and we’re in process and we’re going to get there. But if you crush yourself. Where you’re at right now, because it’s not at the top of what you can do. You’re not going to give yourself the ability to grow to that full potential…

Ella Hooper: Yeah. Yeah. I know your podcast is called the fearless artist podcast. And I think that it’s not that we’re totally devoid of emotion and don’t have any fear, but I love the fearless word is like, you just become less and less fearful when you consistently show up for yourself. Cause I think when most people, it’s like, when I talk to someone who is starting creativity or they’re starting to venture in, they have all these kind of crazy thought distortions and fears that are not even issues that are not even a thing. So the more you step out, the more you go, Oh, I like, I feel way more fearless, like, to get out there because I don’t feel afraid of all these, these thoughts are actually not real. It’s actually smoke and mirrors, like often, you know? And so the more you show up, you kind of like, get rid of all the smoke and mirrors, if that makes sense.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. I mean, Steven Pressfield, famous author, wrote the war on art. He talks about resistance, capital R, resistance, and this is your brain trying to protect you, right? Trying to stop you from sharing what you have. So you will have these crazy thought distortions, like you’re saying, caring about things that literally are not an issue. We have clients who want to come out with projects or an album or a digital course, and they’re worried about something that’s like step 57. And I’m like, how about we start with step one to five and like, let’s just get you started, break it down. And like action comes, with brings clarity. So as you start, you’re going to see, Oh, actually I need to go in this direction instead of trying to figure everything out from the beginning.

Ella Hooper: That’s another way of avoiding stepping out and being brave. Cause you’re like, well, I don’t have all the answers yet, so I don’t have to, I can’t start, you know, so it’s just being fearless. It doesn’t mean that you’re not feeling, this feeling, but you’re learning to move through it, like you’re saying. That’s really beautiful.

Michelle Lynne: Do you have one story of like a client who’s had a transformation or just some growth that you’ve seen that you want to celebrate?

Ella Hooper: Yeah. I mean, I have a client. I mean, I do work with musicians, but I do have a lot of actors and, writers that I work with. But I think for artists, I had this client who is on a TV show that’s quite, um, well-known. And they really struggled with interviews and, because I think for a lot of actors, they love being a character, but when you have to be yourself, like it’s quite vulnerable. And, so interviews were always a trigger. And I noticed with artists, we live in this simultaneously wanting to be seen, but also not wanting to be seen like it’s this war inside us. And sometimes we put out that energy into the world where we’re like got a hand up like against the world, but then we’re also like, come here. But it’s like this confusing message that we’re sending out into the work world. I’m really big on energy. When we’re like at war with this idea of being visible and being seen, which is a huge part of being a creative and being an artist is getting comfortable with being visible. And so we went back and really explored like. why they felt this anxiety about interviews and it was connected to a memory where they were in a class and were praised one minute and then were, in another class, like totally humiliated in front of the class. And who do you think you are? And so that creates confusion in your soul. And so we had to go back and actually, re-imagine the situation. That’s what healing is, is usually let’s go backwards and actually, like add complexity and nuance to the story that maybe that instructor was projecting on you and they were humiliating you. And I think when we have these painful experiences of our past, it goes deep into our subconscious. And then we wonder why we don’t want to have an interview in this person’s case, or like we don’t want to be seen and it’s because we’re trying to protect ourselves from that experience happening. And again, it’s like, if I’m praised in one moment, everyone’s going to be jealous of me, or if I’m scolded in front of the class in the next I’m humiliated. So you feel this, I can’t win with being seen. And so it’s really interesting how the subconscious works. And so when we’re getting to a place where we are going to be seen, like on an interview in a podcast or whatever, then we can have this anxiety because we’re afraid of that humiliation, even though we’re logically like this person is for and this isn’t bad, but it’s this resistance on like. You know, it’s your subconscious trying to protect yourself from that happening again. Anyway, all that to say, um, we really did some work around that memory and actually reclaimed that person’s power. And so then they were able to actually step into greater breakthrough in their career. Because they were able to be more fully themselves. And I really believe that if you’re in your worth and you’re in your authenticity and you’re not hiding, you will attract more opportunity and you will attract more advancement. And so I think I love that example. And I obviously want to be delicate about how I share people’s stories because they’re confidential, but I think when those are the most satisfying is when we can get to what is the block that’s in the way from getting you past that glass ceiling. And so, yeah, I definitely like have loved kind of going on that journey with clients.

Michelle Lynne: Yeah. I think it’s so powerful because whenever we do have this resistance, as you’re saying, there’s a reason for it. There’s something in you that’s trying to protect yourself or avoid pain. And you know, it’s so important that we can sit and work through these triggers and process so that we are not limited in taking action. As you’re saying, like actors, artists, we need to be seen. It’s part of our job. We are literally on stage with a spotlight on us. And so we need to get comfortable. And that’s what I keep preaching about social media. You know, people don’t want to be posting, but it’s like, you have to be seen to find your audience. So yeah, coming to this authentic version of yourself. I mean, you’ve just helped me grow into this so much. All of our calls. I mean, it always feels like a breath of fresh air. So I just want to thank you for your work, your time with us today, what you’ve given to our audience and let us know how we can find you, how people could book in a call with you.

Ella Hooper: I have a podcast myself. It’s called the next brave thing, because I think that, we create that magnetism when we take action, but it’s also, we actually need to do brave things too. So, and I believe that breakthrough is on the other side of bravery. And then you can book in coaching sessions. My website is www.ella-hooper.com. And you can always follow me on Instagram as well.

Michelle Lynne: Yes. The podcast I can only highly recommend. We’re going to share that on all of our socials. We’ll put it in the show notes, everybody listening… The next brave thing. I’ve been on there talking about killing perfectionism and it’s been just such a pleasure listening to all these different people that you bring on talking about a variety of things for emotional health for artists, which I think is so crucial and desperately needed among artists. So thank you for your work and for what you give the artistic community. And of course you’re an artist yourself. So just love watching how you are contributing to everyone around you.

Ella Hooper: Oh, thank you so much. I’ve loved coming on today.